Has anyone else noticed this? The 3W Shawn and I are working has a total Driver Cost in 2025 prices of:
Hi-Vi F8: 75.00 ea: $150.00
SB12MNRX2-25-04: 62.50 ea: $125.00
Seas 27TDFC (H1149): 73.20 ea: $146.40
Total of $421.40
Given the Low XO point (Shawn gave the F8 a haircut due to the really nice mid), the total component cost using Jantzen P-Cores for the woofer and Dayton Standard poly MKP caps was more than the driver cost.
Rant. Rant. Rant.
This is kind of a bump and a request - any lower price sources out there (or alternatives)?
The driver cost is fairly reasonable, but the XO cost, yikes.
Given XO cost for a 3W, it seems almost mandatory to go ahead and use boutique drivers, if you are going to be charged body parts for XO components.
I haven’t looked at capacitor costs for a while, and… wow ! In the past 20 years it feels like the capacitors I was buying have increased in price 3x. I do recall one of my suppliers conveying profound difficulty obtaining Teflon film after production runs in the late 1990s. I am not sure what the pervasive difficulties are today with regard to capacitors , but gosh-darn they have become expensive. Today, I would be incredibly inclined to purchase from Brad / Jule .
A few years ago I generally stopped using passive components and started using DSP and multiple amplifiers. It seems strange to think that DSP + multiple ICE Power modules (they sound decent nowdays IMO) might be close to comparable financially $$ .
My builds are generally not high dollar enough for me to consider better caps. So I tend to use Dayton or now JF too.
As far as coils go, copper is copper. I doubt there is much difference to be had between standard motor wire wound coils (not litz or foil). Some might get a slightly better design to use less wire and end up with a slightly lower dcr, but talking 1/10ths of an ohm. Not sure I consider that worth it for price difference.
I always hear on any sintered core style coil. So I stick to laminated core when needed. Per Jantzen, the P-cores are supposed to be somehow different than ferrite cores. But I still see them lumped in with the so IDK.
When built my Classix IIs a few years ago, the XO parts and binding posts cost more than the drivers, but that was when DC160s were A$40 and the Vifa tweeters, $20. These days the drivers would cost almost double, while the XO parts would be about the same..
However, the nature of the drivers and the desired crossover point for the Classix II required more parts than some other designs.
By way of contrast, IIRC the driver cost for my Slapshots was about $500 and the XO parts about $180.
More than the total. Jule would have reduced it a bit.
Ooh - we should start a solid core coil thread.
I have “the” book and it’s full of BH Loops and data. I left it at work but can drag it back home.
IMO: Ferrites stink for audio because they ain’t linear. I would never use one. Curvy BH Loop, not so hot for audio. You want the loop near flat line and then very gentle knee to saturation.
Lam steel bars are great until you hit saturation. My ZRT’s came with a Sledge on the woofer from Mad. Sounds fine.
Powder Cores have some promise. I would love to see plotted loops and permeability data for the Jantzens.
I’ve conducted many detailed measurements in conjunction with listening, and have concluded that boutique crossover parts are simply snake oil. Use whatever mass manufactured run of the mill MKP capacitors, air core inductors and steel laminate if you must, just use whatever you can find cheaply. You money is ALWAYS better invested in the drivers.
…and always keep one eye on the used market, sometimes there are some great deals to be had on lightly used parts. I’ve collected quite a few large value MKP capacitors and many drivers this way.
XO Parts swap meet at the DIY? I know how to make coils, but hand-making them is a long process, and work would interfere, just like it does with everything.
Assumptions…There’s little to “hear” in regard to DCR in itself, only a speaker designed with all aspects taken into account or not. For woofer circuits, a large series inductor with low DCR will usually create a bump in the speaker response around 100Hz range where the driver impedance drops to a minimum. This can lead to a speaker sounding “boomy” if not taken into account in other aspects like cabinet tuning. Increased DCR will reduce the bump, but also dampens the output at the tuning frequency for bass reflex systems.
My point is, consideration for air core or steel laminate should start at cabinet design and tuning stage, and any comparison should be made on optimized systems. Some drivers may be better suited to air core inductors, some may be more suited for low DCR. Detailed evaluation can be completed in VituixCAD enclosure design tool. Make sure you are using a driver with “extended Z” parameters and enable “show effect of inductance”. On the filter tab, at the bottom you can enter in passive crossover components for basic simulation of the cabinet performance with a crossover in place.
Crossover parts are the goldmine in the DIY world. The components themselves are not expensive to produce. I read most of the posts. Here’s the most interesting thing for me. When you see the stuff that gets put into branded high end loudspeakers you learn very quickly that simple and good enough actually work. Gilding the Lilly is a game being played for decades. Film caps sure, Inductors, chosen wisely all will work. Lastly size your inductors if you are using cores for average use and then 6db crest factor. As in under 50 watts. And you will almost never in a home environment have distortion caused by your correctly cored inductor. Happily loudspeakers, properly applied can now be under 1% distortion across the voice bandwidth. They are still the weakest link numerically, but when masking effects are taken into account loudspeakers can be more than adequate to realistically reproduce your tunes.
You mean goldmine for the sellers I’m sure. There simply are not as many manufacturing companies as there are brands of parts, many are in fact coming from the same production line with different labels on them. There is no secret to wrap some thin polypropylene film in metal deposited foil and roll it up with some leads attached.
Boutique components simply cost more because of small production runs and higher profit margins, not much else. It is simply the difference between “perceived value” and actual performance. Bennic XPP and even yellow PMT are fine, invest in the drivers folks.
on any sintered core style coil. So I stick to laminated core when needed. Per Jantzen, the P-cores are supposed to be somehow different than ferrite cores. But I still see them lumped in with the 